Stress Testing Your Financial Plan

Key Points – Stress Testing Your Financial Plan

How High of a Fed Funds Rate Hike Will We See in May?
The Nasdaq Enter Bear Market Territory
Stress Testing Your Financial Plan to Similar Time Periods
What Does the Future Hold for 30-Year Mortgage Rates?
It’s Time to Be Diligent, Not Time to Panic
21 minutes to read | 38 minutes to listen

The saying goes that history never repeats itself, but it often rhymes has been very relevant lately from a financial planning perspective. Dean Barber and Bud Kasper discuss the importance of stress testing your financial plan to see how it would perform in similar periods to what we’re currently experiencing.

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Show Resources:

Find links to the resources Dean and Bud mentioned on this episode below.

The Roller Coaster That Is the Stock Market

Dean Barber: Thanks so much to those who join us on America’s Wealth Management Show. I’m your host, Dean Barber, along with Bud Kasper. My, my, my, we have a wild, wild ride. It’s like the never-ending roller coaster this year in the stock market.

Bud Kasper: There’s so much activity to read about and so many data points to collect. We need to take all that and see if there’s a path that needs to be altered in people’s portfolios to protect their assets and still promote its growth.

How High of a Fed Funds Rate Hike Will We See in May?

When we look at the Federal Reserve, we know what’s going to be happening with them soon. May 4 is the next meeting for the Federal Open Market Committee. There’s a 94% chance that they’re going to raise the Fed Funds rate by at least 0.5%. There’s a 70% chance that they may go with a 0.75% hike.

Dean Barber: Interesting. The markets are acting just wildly crazy. We’ve seen corporate earnings beating estimates. More companies are beating their estimated earnings.

Bud Kasper: Yeah, 79% of the S&P 500 members are beating their expectations.

The Nasdaq Enters Bear Market Territory

Dean Barber: Right. And yet the markets are not following suit. On Tuesday, the Nasdaq had the biggest drop that it had since going back into the COVID crisis of 2020. It was approximately 23% below its peak, which was on November 22, 2021. That’s officially bear market territory. When we get an index that is more than 20% below its high point, that is the definition of a bear market.

It has not leaked into the S&P 500 or Dow Jones Industrial Average yet. However, there are a lot of stocks within the S&P 500 that are in bear market territory. We even get bellwethers like Apple, who just this last week was down almost 12% year-to-date. Apple always seems to be printing money. They’ve got a lot of cash on hand.

There’s a lot of nervousness out there right now. I haven’t had this eerie feeling that we have now since back in 2008.

Russia/Ukraine Situation Highlights Nervousness Surrounding the Markets

Bud Kasper: I agree. There are so many exogenous events that are going on that are climbing on top of this market decline that we’re experiencing. Obviously, the Russia-Ukraine situation is very much in people’s minds. Anytime the word nuclear is brought into play, that strikes fear in people’s minds with the possibility of World War III. I don’t think that will happen, but nonetheless, just the fact that people are talking about it makes everyone a little bit more nervous.

As I’ve stated before, the Federal Reserve should’ve been raising rates at the end of last year—not what they’re doing now. And, of course, that’s putting tremendous pressure on the bond market. We’re also starting to see the stocks starting to cave in as well.

Dean and I have more than 75 years of experience in the financial industry, so we’ve experienced these bear markets before with our clients. Let me tell you that nobody at our firm is panicking. Adjustments sometimes need to be made, but you also need to do one thing—relate what’s going on back to your plan.

And if you don’t have a plan, you’re not understanding the power behind the numbers that represent your future. Working with a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ Professional can enable you to understand what’s happening and the real impact that it might have on your future.

The Volatility Is Very Real and Very Uncomfortable

Dean Barber: Let me just give an example of the importance of that plan. Obviously, the volatility is on a lot of people’s minds, including our clients. This volatility is real and uncomfortable. You can’t turn on the news without hearing about what is happening in the markets. There is fear of recession and so many other things that are out there.

We had a client who asked us, “What’s going on? What are we doing to make sure that we protect our assets?” In this client’s scenario, they had about 50% in equities and 50% in fixed income. This client is in their mid-60s and has enough money. They will very likely never be able to spend all of it.

The part that is in equities is designed to be legacy money. It’s long term. The part that is in fixed income is what we’re going to live off for the next 25 years. There’s plenty to do that.

It’s a very simple conversation of saying, “Look, your plan is going to work. You can get all the income you need. If we hold equities at 50% of your portfolio, it’s going to be more volatile. But if this is for a longer-term legacy look, we don’t need to be too concerned at this point. However, if you would feel more comfortable with less volatility on that long-term legacy part and accept a potential lower return over the long term, we can reduce the equity position.”

At that point, the individual got it. He said, “I need to treat that money like I did when I was 35 or 40 years old. I don’t want to treat it like when I’m 65 years old.”

The Clarity of a Financial Plan

Because it is long term, it is money that’s going to be there for the second and the third generation. It’s not money that he needs for retirement. Having the plan allowed him to know that was the case. He can think about that differently.

Bud Kasper: Right, it’s like my mom would say, “I never promised you a rose garden.” Well, that’s what happens when we’re investing. We go through these times that seem rather trying to say the least. It’s understandable to be nervous, but it’s simply a matter of making adjustments. Relate back to the longer-term understanding of what the plan can create for you.

Uncertainty Abounds

Dean Barber: There are always risk management strategies that can be applied. We’ll talk a little bit more about that later. As we’ve mentioned, there is a lot of uncertainty in the economy right now. There is a lot of uncertainty around geopolitical conditions and a lot of uncertainty about what the Federal Reserve is going to do. What are housing prices and 30-year mortgage rates going to do?

All the uncertainty is driving the stock market crazy. It sent the Nasdaq into official bear market territory this week. The low point was about 23% below the peak that the Nasdaq set on November 22, 2021.

Stress Testing Your Financial Plan to Similar Time Periods

We need to put this in perspective so that people understand that we are in a timeframe right now where there is a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainty will drive the market crazy. Sometimes we need to step back and take a different approach at how we’re thinking about our money.

The reality is that if you go back through history, you can see times like this. They’re not going to be exactly the same, but they’re going to be similar enough. You can say, “If I held the same portfolio through historical times that look similar to where we are today, how would it have reacted? What would it have done? How much money would I have at risk?”

Don’t think of it just in terms of a percentage loss. Think of it in terms of a dollar loss and understand what that really is. If you do that, then you can say you’re not comfortable with that or that you can handle that if it’s your worst-case scenario. You need to stress test of your financial plan. It’s very simple to do. You don’t have to sit there and wonder whether you’re positioned correctly.

There’s one thing for certain and that is that nobody has a crystal ball. Nobody is going to be able to tell you exactly where we’re going to wind up this year. Bud and I still feel like there’s a probability that we wind up with a positive return on the broad markets for 2022, but we don’t know.

Skyrocketing Mortgage Rates

I think one of the big caveats is that the 30-year mortgage rates have skyrocketed from where they were just last year. People were getting 30-year mortgages for around 3% to 3.25% last year. The housing market was on fire and housing prices were increasing rapidly.

Suddenly, we’ve seen the 30-year mortgage rate spike. Depending upon the type of loan that you’re getting, you’re going to see those 30-year rates as high as 5.93%. If you have good credit, put 20% down, etc., you might get in the 5.35% to 5.4% range. But that’s dramatically higher than it was last year. It has a lot of people worried.

Bud Kasper: Yeah, it does. And rightfully so. But remember, this is purely a function of what’s not going on right now but will be happening in the future with interest rates. The Federal Reserve is directing the show. I had a client tell me that he tries to never miss America’s Wealth Management Show. But now that we’re seeing these uncharted waters and all this volatility, he’s listening even more carefully. I’m glad he is. Between Dean and I, what do we have? 78 years of experience?

Dean Barber: Yeah, but who’s counting?

Bud Sees Greener Pastures on the Other Side of These Uncertain Times

Bud Kasper: I am. But it is fear of the unknown that usually resets stock prices lower, not the actual bad news that usually arrives. If you can remember that, you can kind of rationalize your way through this. There’s nothing wrong with reallocating your portfolio to have more implied safety associated with it. It’s quite frankly the way we need to adjust in our own mind that we have taken extra measures to more than likely be more conservative for a short period.

When we see what’s going on with Ukraine and the pressure coming in from Russia, could you have any more on your plate that makes you want to run to the hills or put the rock in the hole in the cave?

Nevertheless, these are things that we’ve seen in one shape or form at any time in our lives. When we come out of this, I really believe it’s going to be a brilliant situation for us from an economic perspective. I’m not just talking about the United States either. I think that’s going to be a good experience globally as well.

Dean Barber: What do you mean by that, Bud? Do you think this is a short-term blip of volatility in a longer-term, continued growth type of scenario? Is that what you’re saying?

Bud Kasper: I think people, especially in Europe, are having to rethink what they did to get in bed with Russia to have oil coming down. Now that they’re saying, “Hey, this is a crappy country (Russia) run by an absolute idiot (Vladimir Putin). If that’s the case, let’s not get involved with them.” It’s no different than telling your kid, “I don’t want you hanging around with that kid because he’s nothing but trouble.”

Profitability Is the Name of the Game

What they’ll do is they’ll look for other sources for their fuel. And we know what’s happening with the green initiative. We’re electrifying the world. There are some issues with that, but it’s still a step in the right direction. I’m in favor of that from that perspective and what other resources come in. But my point is that once we come out of this, I think we’ll have a better world. We will have markets that will come back into play because profitability is the name of the game. It will always be that way.

We Haven’t Seen Mortgage Rates Like This Since Before the Dot-Com Bubble

Dean Barber: OK, I get that. I want to turn our attention back to these rising interest rates, specifically on the mortgages. Housing prices have gone up a ton. We know that with interest rates going up, that’s going to make it more difficult for buyers that need to borrow money to buy a house.

Now, for the cash buyers it’s not a big deal because they don’t need to contend with interest rates. But people that are borrowing money to buy a house, suddenly the 30-year mortgage rate going from the low-3% to the mid-5% range. By the way, estimates are that by the end of this year, 30-year mortgage rates could be as high as 6.75%. When was the last time that you think we saw interest rates on 30-year mortgages at 6.75%?

Bud Kasper: I don’t know.

Dean Barber: It was before the Dot-Com Bubble. It’s been more than 22 years since we saw interest rates this high. That in and of itself will slow the housing market.

Is This Housing Bubble Similar to 2008?

There’s a lot of people asking the question: Is this a similar housing bubble that we experienced in 2008 that caused the Great Recession? My answer is: not even close.

At that point, there was oversupply in the housing market. You had the subprime loans that were being written all over the place, then repackaged, and all the derivatives and everything that were on top of that. There were the interest-only loans. People were borrowing 110%, 120% of the value of their home. It was a nightmare. This was an overleveraged, speculative situation created by the Fair Housing Act and the Sarbanes-Oxley Act.

Bud Kasper: That’s right.

Dean Barber: It was the dissolution of that, which allowed the investment banks to start acting like a bank. It just created all kinds of trouble. There were loans given to people that should’ve never been able to borrow money in the first place because they didn’t have the income to support the loans.

Today, we have a housing shortage. There are not enough homes for the wannabe buyers. I believe that is going to keep prices elevated. However, I think the transactions are going to slow. But I don’t think this resembles the 2008 housing bubble that caused the Great Recession.

Another Reason to Stress Test Your Financial Plan

Bud Kasper: I agree. In the planning process, one of the things that we do is take a person’s existing portfolio—perhaps it’s their 401(k)—and put it into one of the more difficult periods of time in stock market history to see exactly how your portfolio would have performed at that timeframe. That’s how you stress test your financial plan.

We ask the question: “Could you tolerate that?” A lot of times people say, “Oh yeah, I can tolerate that.” But now when you get in the reality of it and see what’s happening, it’s similar to what our experience is currently. You start rethinking yourself a little bit.

Stress Testing Your Financial Plan Back to the 1970s

Dean Barber: If you want to go back and stress test your financial plan through a time that’s similar to what we’re feeling today, you need to go all the way back to 1971. Stress test your financial plan back to the time period of 1971 through about 1980. That was a period of truly rising interest rates on a consistent basis. It was also a period of high inflation.

Bud Kasper: And oil.

Dean Barber: And oil. So, what happened to the stock market from 1971 to 1980? It went nowhere. That was the first lost decade. Take away from the Great Depression, but that was literally the first lost decade in almost 50 years.

We Can’t Go for That (30-Year Mortgage Rate)

And when it comes to things like these outrageous 30-year mortgage rates, it makes me think of a song from Hall and Oates that you’ll probably recognize. It’s called, I Can’t Go for That. I can’t go for those 30-year mortgage rates. What in the world?

Bud Kasper: I saw those guys in a private concert for a company I was working right out of college. It was very cool. They were 10 feet away from me hitting it hard and playing some of the top songs they had at the time. Still, those songs didn’t even represent the top hits of their career.

Dean Barber: What year was that?

Bud Kasper: I think it was 1982 or something like that. That was fun, but yes, we have issues.

Dean Barber: That leads perfectly into what we’re about to talk about from a time period standpoint. The 30-year mortgage rates hit an all-time high in late 1981, early 1982. Guess what that rate was?

Bud Kasper: 11%.

Dean Barber: No, no, no, no, no. It was just under 19%.

Bud Kasper: Oh Lord. No wonder I was in an apartment.

The Last Time We Experienced Runaway Inflation

Dean Barber: Paul Volcker was trying to stop the runaway inflation of the late 1970s and early 1980s. Then, there was a precipitous drop as the recession of 1982 took hold. From that point forward, we’ve seen a steady decline of interest rates until now. Interest rates on 30-year mortgages are heading higher again.

As I was saying earlier, you need to go back and stress test your financial plan. Stress test your financial positions through the last period where we saw truly rising interest rates. I said that was from 1971 to 1980. If we look at the S&P 500 from 1971 to 1980, that’s a nine-year period with a total return of 17.14%. That is just under 2% per year annualized over that nine-year period. There was a precipitous drop from the early 1973 into late 1974. It was around 50% drop overall.

I’m not saying that we’re going to have a 50% drop, but we haven’t had a period of rising interest rates in most people’s investing lifetime. You’re going back into the olden days when you’re going 1982. That’s a long time ago. We’ve seen a declining interest rates for 40 years.

What Can We Expect Interest Rates to Look Like in the Next Five Years?

Now, we’re looking at a company called the Economy Forecasting Agency that has interest rate forecasts for mortgages for 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, and 2026. And remember, I said earlier that they were forecasting that the 30-year mortgage would be somewhere between 6.62% and 7.05% by December of this year. The median on that is about 6.84%. Now, by the time we get to December 2023, they’re forecasting 7.76% on the interest rates. By the time to get to December 2024, it’s at 8.81%. It finally peaks in July 2025 at 9.5% before beginning to descend again.

If this forecast is accurate, which it’s not going to be—there’s no way it’s going to be—but rates are going higher. If we end this year at 6.75% or somewhere in that range on a 30-year mortgage, it’s going to change the scope of how people are purchasing homes. It’s going to change the pace at which they’re purchasing homes. And that affects everything from the number of washers, dryers, dishwashers, lawn mowers, yard equipment, etc. that is sold. That’s a huge catalyst to our economy.

Believe It or Not, but It Might Be Best to Act Now in the Housing Market

Bud Kasper: That takes us back to the supply chain debacle because you can’t get a refrigerator if you buy a new home, even if the interest rate is 6.5%. There’s an old saying of, “A word to the wise is enough.” I think Ben Franklin is the one that said that. What Dean is sharing basically says that if you are in the housing market right now, you probably need to strike within the next three to six months if you want a reasonable rate. And that reasonable rate still doesn’t seem very reasonable compared to where it was a year ago.

Dean Barber: Do you know what the average rate was from 1971 through 2022?

Bud Kasper: No, of course not.

Dean Barber: 7.78%. That was the average. And, of course, you had way higher and way lower, but 6.75% sounds absolutely insane for those of us that have purchased a house recently or even in the last 15 years. That’s way high.

There Is Opportunity to Be Born Out of This

Bud Kasper: What we’re experiencing in this market is startling to a lot of investors. And it should be because these are the type of things that really call reality to order. People need to understand if they can tolerate these type of declines. If the answer is no, then perhaps they’re not in the right portfolio. In the same token, there will be opportunity, which will be born out of this. I personally love that opportunity.

Dean Barber: I do too. I don’t like what it takes to get there, but I do like the opportunity. That’s the idea of having some dry powder, right? That’s the idea of having a portfolio that isn’t 100% equities. There are companies out there that believe that you should always own equities and never own bonds. I don’t agree with that, especially for somebody that is nearing retirement or in retirement.

It All Goes Back to Stress Testing Your Financial Plan

You need to go back and stress test your financial plan through all types of different market environments. For example, we can take your portfolio and go from 0% equity to a 100% cash and then all mixes in between for bonds to stocks. By the time you eclipse roughly 80% in equities, your probability of success in retirement starts to decline.

You’re taking on more risk in your overall portfolio and at the same time, you’re increasing the risk that your plan will fail. If you have too much equity exposure, your portfolio draw down can be so great in a period where you’re trying to spend money off it that it could turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy of you running out of money. You need to have the right allocation. The only way to know what the right allocation for you is to do what Bud and I talk about all the time. That is to have a well-crafted plan.

We use a program called The Guided Retirement System™. It allows us to create a GPS for your retirement and go back and stress test your financial plan through what would’ve happened through various periods. We used the example earlier of stress testing your financial plan back to the 1970s.

How Does Now Compare to Various Time Periods?

Well, what would’ve happened if we stress tested your financial plan through the 1987 market crash? What would’ve happened if we stress tested your financial plan through the Dot-Com Bubble? How about stress testing your financial plan through The Great Recession?

More importantly, how would your ability to live the life you want to live in retirement have been affected by those types of conditions? If you get that clarity, suddenly you know it’s going to work.

Bud Kasper: If you’ve ever questioned any of this, this is your opportunity to let us help you understand how you’re invested today and how it’s going to impact your future. This inflation is insidious and it’s a horrible situation. When you take the amount of income that you have and then find out how much cost of goods and services are, you’re eroding that ability to spend.

How to Combat Inflation

Dean Barber: I’ve said this many, many times, and I’ve witnessed it, but this is my two cents on inflation. Inflation is not something that causes as a person to go broke (not our clients anyway). But it’ll cause them to live like they’re broke because they have been frugal their entire lives.

For most people that have saved well and live below their means, inflation doesn’t cause you to go broke. However, it causes you to live like you’re broke. It causes you to sacrifice your standard of living because you didn’t have it properly built into your plan. You can fix that though. You absolutely can. That’s what we do with The Guided Retirement System™.

We’re Seeing Slowing Growth, Not Negative Growth

Now, let’s do a quick review of what we’ve discussed so far about the stock market. We’ve seen the biggest route in the Nasdaq since the COVID crisis hit. It’s down 23% from its high point back in November 2021. The Nasdaq is officially in bear market territory. Many stocks in the S&P 500 are also in bear market territory.

And 30-year mortgage rates up around 5.2 to 5.3%. They’re estimated to be up as much as 6.75% by the end of this year. In a housing market that has been overheated due to ultra-low interest rates and, in my opinion, too much stimulus, it begs the question of where are we headed? We did have interest rates invert. We talked about that a few weeks ago. The inversion was for a very, very short period.

Bud Kasper: Less than a week.

Dean Barber: Yeah. But every time that’s happened, there has been a recession at some point in the not-too-distant future. The worries are out there about a recession. The market is already beginning to slow down. We’re already seeing a slowing growth. It’s not a negative growth, but a slowing rate of growth that looks to continue through the balance of this year and through most of 2023.

Is a Recession on the Horizon?

There’s fear about the Fed committing to raising rates as fast as what they’re talking about now. And there’s fear about the threat of the 30-year mortgages heading up around 7% and close to 8% by the end of next year potentially. Could those be the catalysts that lead us into a recession?

If that’s the case, what does that mean for your investments in the stock market and bond market? How do you know whether you hold the right stuff and if it’s going to deliver to you what you need to have the retirement that you want?

Of course, most of our clients are nearing retirement or already in retirement. The investment game changes at that point. Your focus is to preserve, protect, create income, create total returns so that you can take distributions from your portfolio over time. The ultimate goal is to take distributions from your portfolio over time and not erode the value of that portfolio so that you can still pass some money on to the next generation.

There’s a Science Behind the Guided Retirement System™

There’s a right way for each one of you to do that. It all depends on the resources that you have and your desired lifestyle. Once we understand everything and run through The Guided Retirement System™, we can prescribe the right asset allocation through any economic or market environment. There is a science to this.

Bud Kasper: No doubt. I point the finger directly at the Federal Reserve. Dean and I discussed about eight months ago that the Federal Reserve needed to start raising rates. All this came on the back of COVID. They were fearful that the pandemic associated with this was going to crush the economy.

They were so fearful that they came up with an incredible stimulus program. I say incredible in terms of the amount of stimulus to the degree that it was perhaps too much. In the process of not backing off that at the appropriate time, we now find ourselves creating headlines because of the impact that the Federal Reserve is going to have on raising rates.

The Markets Have Already Anticipated a 0.5% Hike in the Fed Funds Rate

So, what are we expecting? On May 4, indications on a percentage basis are suggesting that we’re going to get a 0.5% move. Now, is that already baked into the numbers we’re seeing today?

Dean Barber: Yes.

Bud Kasper: How about the next 0.5% hike? Because now they’re talking about three consecutive 0.5% moves that will go all the way through the summer.

Dean Barber: Yes. That’s baked in too. I believe to a large degree that it’s been baked in. That’s why you see the 30-year mortgages where they are. We haven’t seen a 2% increase in the Fed funds rate. We haven’t seen a 2% increase in the 10-year treasury, yet we’ve seen 30-year mortgages increase by over 2%. So, yeah, it’s baked in. They’re already considering it.

Bud Kasper: If that’s the case, then you’re suggesting that most of the pain that we’ve experienced in the bond market is probably over or at least 90% there.

What About the Bond Markets?

Dean Barber: No, I don’t think that at all. It’s baked into the 30-year mortgage rates. The markets know it’s coming. It’s baked into the equity markets, but it’s not baked into the bond markets. We’re at 2.776% on the 10-year treasury. And I think there is at least another 1% increase on the 10-year treasury by end of the year.

If you’re in long treasuries, that equates to a 10% decline. It doesn’t go across all bonds like that, but I think there is still some risk out there. If the Fed raises rates, the one month is currently at 0.357%. The one year is at 1.931%. So, yes, if we go to 2% or 2.5% on the Fed funds as you alluded to earlier, you can’t have a 10-year staying at 2.778%. There’s going to be that spread between the 10-year and the one-year and the overnight rate, which is what you’re talking about getting up to 2.5%.

It’s Time to Be Diligent, Not Time to Panic

Bud Kasper: Yeah. Now, while that sounds clear to Dean and I, it may not sound clear to you. So, I implore you to challenge yourself by checking in with us with what’s going on in your portfolio. You don’t have to be in a panic about any of this. You need to control your destiny and we’d like to help in that endeavor.

Dean Barber: This is not panic time. This is time to basically be smart and gather information about the state of your current financial situation.

Bud Kasper: Exactly.

Dean Barber: Understand the implications of what you hold today. If we continue to see rates rise and see inflation do what it’s doing, what could that possibly mean over the course of the next 18 to 24 months? That’s really what you need to be concerned about right now.

Bud Kasper: It all revolves back around how much risk do you have in your portfolio? If you can’t quantify that yourself, let us help you.

What Financial Planning Is All About

Dean Barber: That’s right. Quantifying the risk is the ideal thing. Let’s say you’ve got $2 million and the way you’re holding your positions today shows that the worst-case scenario is like going back to The Great Recession and you’d be down by 20%. Well, 20% is $400,000 on a $2 million portfolio. Maybe you can handle that and it’s not a big deal to you.

But if that’s too much, then you need to reassess where you’re at and make some adjustments to protect. Again, it’s knowledge and then the application of that knowledge to your own personal situation. That’s what financial planning is. That’s what we do for people every day. Combined, we’ve been doing it for 78 years.

Dean Barber: We’ve been in the industry for a long time.

Bud Kasper: Yeah. These issues aren’t going away. You need to address them full force.

Dean and Bud’s Vision of Volatility for 2022 Has Rang True

Dean Barber: When we opened 2022 and we did our first show of the year, we talked about the fact that you and I both thought that there was going to be a lot of volatility in the first half of the year. We were right about that.

Are we going to be right about where interest rates wind up at the end of the year? We don’t know. We don’t have crystal balls, but what we do know is how to put together a great plan for you to give you clarity, confidence, and control. To learn more about how to put together that plan, I encourage you to schedule a 20-minute ask anything session or complimentary consultation with a CFP® professional here.

We appreciate you joining us here on America’s Wealth Management Show. I’m Dean Barber, along with Bud Kasper. Everybody stay healthy, stay safe. We’ll be back with you next week. Same time, same place.

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